tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post8670113675215780190..comments2024-03-18T01:24:59.573-05:00Comments on a blog about school: Teacher: “It is as bad as you think and probably worse”Chrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12919030671050831251noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-80920185913829500672012-03-08T20:13:30.886-06:002012-03-08T20:13:30.886-06:00The Times reports today on a survey about teacher ...<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/education/teacher-morale-sinks-survey-results-show.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general#" rel="nofollow">The Times reports</a> today on a survey about teacher morale-- worth reading.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-8198227957081292392012-03-07T11:43:16.288-06:002012-03-07T11:43:16.288-06:00I just read Karen's post about research and ha...I just read Karen's post about research and had to LOL at myself for posting a citation full of research! But to back up that research with some personal anecdotal evidence--I can think of teachers in my own life who inspired me to go on to do what I do. Can you? Without that teacher caring about more than just assignments and test scores, I would've been a wreck. I also know that in my own classroom, my students are able to achieve more because I really do care about them all and like them as people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-63633435293367147762012-03-07T11:35:53.106-06:002012-03-07T11:35:53.106-06:00Unfortunately, FedUpMom, due to copyright laws I c...Unfortunately, FedUpMom, due to copyright laws I cannot post a direct link to an excellent meta-analysis synthesizing 150 research studies linking academic achievement to positive personal relationships with teachers. Here is the citation, though: Learner-Centered Teacher-Student Relationships Are Effective: A Meta-Analysis<br />Review of Educational Research March 2007 77: 113-143. There are hundreds of studies showing a very high correlation between student-teacher relationships and academic achievement.<br /><br />More than ANY other factor, teacher's relationships with their students impact academic achievement. This is why there is such a push to revamp teacher evaluations, get rid of "last in, first out" rules in teacher hiring. Keeping teachers out of student's personal lives actually impedes academic progress. Students who get to know their teachers on a personal level achieve at a higher level. Many studies mentioned in that meta-analysis also argue that the likelihood of any student succeeding in higher education depends on close relationships with teachers in grades k-3!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-77976200618910223922012-03-07T08:08:30.507-06:002012-03-07T08:08:30.507-06:00Wow, Jen, that doesn't sound good to me. I do...Wow, Jen, that doesn't sound good to me. I don't want to hug my kids' teachers, or call them at home, or see them at every athletic event. My kids need a family life which is separate from school. Their teachers deserve a life separate from school too.FedUpMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00951858601020687242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-87543425498840298632012-03-05T21:23:02.201-06:002012-03-05T21:23:02.201-06:00Websites don't say anything accurate about Kir...Websites don't say anything accurate about Kirkwood's environment. You'd really have to visit and see what it's like. In person. I really do think people should visit. I am not being facetious...there is a wonderful environment, a wonderful staff. And open-enrollment to a SINA school would probably be really easy... The only families who SINA transferred out last year were kindergarten families who had never set foot in the building. Anyone who visits and gets to know the kids and the staff stays. Visiting and getting to know the Kirkwood community a little --not just a looksee--would surprise many of you, I think.<br /><br />Test scores do not define anyone or any school accurately. One of the main arguments people (parents and teachers alike) have against NCLB is its reliance on test scores. Yet the first thing anyone does when trying to gauge the success of a school is go to a site like Great Schools and examine the test scores. Pretty ironic, I think. <br /><br />Thankfully, the community at Kirkwood only worries about test scores as one indicator out of many that a child may need some extra help or an extra challenge (tests are an indicator for struggling learners and gifted learners--but just an indicator, not the main source of data)...most of their data comes from kids, parents, and day-to-day interactions in the classroom. Differentiation, individualization--these are the common practices at Kirkwood. Teachers build relationships with students and families. My children's teachers come to their recreation league games on weekends--even though their own kids don't play those sports! Teachers have come to children's birthday parties, too! Maybe that kind of differentiation and individual attention is the norm at every school? Maybe you all have home numbers for your children's teachers? Maybe you all hug your children's teachers at parent teacher conferences? If so, then Kirkwood isn't so special after all. But those are the perks I have as a Kirkwood parent. It is a very special place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-70309753656124300722012-03-05T14:48:32.121-06:002012-03-05T14:48:32.121-06:00SCF -- Thanks for the link; here it is in clickabl...SCF -- Thanks for the link; here it is in <a href="https://www.det.nsw.edu.au/proflearn/docs/pdf/qt_haberman.pdf" rel="nofollow">clickable form</a>.<br /><br />I know that there are many people who would react to the argument I'm making by accusing me of "the soft bigotry of low expectations," or of "edu-nihilism." I disagree; reality can't be completely removed from the debate. The reality is that a group of students' relatively low performance on standardized test scores cannot be presumed to be attributable primarily to bad teachers, and that even the best teacher would have trouble significantly raising the test scores of kids who have disrupted or chaotic home lives, little or no parental support, trouble just getting decent food and shelter, etc., not to mention possibly learning disabilities to boot.<br /><br />I can't say enough times: God knows I think our schools (and not just the low-SES ones) should be doing a lot of things differently, and your quote from Haberman sounds right on the mark. But just because teachers of low-SES kids aren't ever castigated for poor teaching doesn't mean they're all guilty of it. All I'm saying is that you can't figure out whether someone's a bad teacher purely by looking at the test scores of his or her students.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-73970964439603320742012-03-05T12:45:02.818-06:002012-03-05T12:45:02.818-06:00Oh and, if you read Jen Marshall Duncan's blo...Oh and, if you read Jen Marshall Duncan's blog about her students in particular- She consistently does all the sorts of things that Haberman calls "Good Teaching," in contrast to the pedagogy of poverty.SCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-41027724370032453092012-03-05T12:40:32.753-06:002012-03-05T12:40:32.753-06:00Chris, I love this paper by Martin Haberman. Eve...Chris, I love this paper by Martin Haberman. Every now and again I reread it, and meditate on it a bit.<br />https://www.det.nsw.edu.au/proflearn/docs/pdf/qt_haberman.pdf<br /> <br /> Your attitude about low scores for this school reminded me of this particular observation Haberman makes, "It cannot be emphasized enough that, in the real world, urban teachers are never defined as<br />incompetent because their "deprived," "disadvantaged," "abused," "low-income" students are not<br />learning. Instead, urban teachers are castigated because they cannot elicit compliance."SCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-66502557171124046402012-03-05T02:23:57.170-06:002012-03-05T02:23:57.170-06:00SCF -- Then, by definition, forty percent of stude...SCF -- Then, by definition, forty percent of students will be considered non-proficient. Does that mean that the teachers of those kids are doing their jobs poorly? If so, then the best way to improve your job performance is to get a job at a high-SES school.<br /><br />It's just very easy for me to imagine how kids might score poorly despite the best efforts of good teachers, given the other factors that could play such a large role. Even the best teachers don't have super-powers. <br /><br />Again, that doesn't mean the schools and teachers are doing their best -- just that the scores alone can't tell us whether they are.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-77689388002804746582012-03-05T02:04:46.598-06:002012-03-05T02:04:46.598-06:00"Can we really conclude that the school, or t..."Can we really conclude that the school, or the teachers, are inferior, whenever they don't bring disadvantaged kids up to the same scores as higher-SES kids?" <br /> The students aren't expected to score the same as high SES status students. <br /> According to Great Schools, "The ITBS is a norm-referenced test, which means it measures how well students in Iowa score in comparison to their peers nationwide. Students who score at the [b]40th percentile[/b] are considered proficient." <br /> Personally, I do expect my sons to do every bit as well as any other kids. Don't you expect your school to teach well what it purports to teach in the seven hours/day, 177 days/year of your child's life it has? <br /><br /> <br /><br />Average salary for a teacher at Kirkwood, $47369 <br /><br />Grant link for Kirkwood- http://ppics.learningpt.org/ppics/publicGrantee.asp?grantee=7867SCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-39375172246050747412012-03-04T19:14:11.976-06:002012-03-04T19:14:11.976-06:00SCF -- Scores may be able to tell us that the stud...SCF -- Scores may be able to tell us that the students' reading and math abilities are below the average, and maybe well below the average, but that could be largely a function of SES. I'd be surprised if low-SES kids didn't have lower test scores, on average. Can we really conclude that the school, or the teachers, are inferior, whenever they don't bring disadvantaged kids up to the same scores as higher-SES kids?<br /><br />Of course, it's <i>possible</i> that the school could be doing better by its students -- but that's true of higher-scoring schools as well. But you'd need something more than scores to draw that conclusion, wouldn't you?<br /><br />It's also possible that the entire district could improve its curriculum, but that it's the low-SES kids who are likely to suffer from curricular inadequacies, because they may be less likely to have the kind of parental support that helps them fill in the gaps. But that would be the fault of the district, not the individual school. <br /><br />I don't blame teachers for being upset at the idea that they are to blame whenever the kids who happen to be in their classroom score poorly on standardized tests. There are so many other factors in kids' lives.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-39563524821663641152012-03-04T17:47:52.054-06:002012-03-04T17:47:52.054-06:00Hey, I don't think high test scores are proof ...Hey, I don't think high test scores are proof of a great school. There can be a few obvious reasons schools can get a high score without actually providing a great education.<br /> But now the other way..... low scores? Year after year? Unless we're talking about a school for intellectually disabled children....and we're not in this case, are we?<br /> You tell me, Chris, give me a rational reason to call a school good or even passable, if the low socioeconomic status students do bad at reading and math tests year after year?SCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-79112393070025963882012-03-04T16:40:49.063-06:002012-03-04T16:40:49.063-06:00SCF -- Jen can be provocative, but, in her (and Ki...SCF -- Jen can be provocative, but, in her (and Kirkwood's) defense, I don't see how you can evaluate a school solely on its test scores, especially since a school's population is not a random sample of kids.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-30031793327267429602012-03-04T16:27:30.800-06:002012-03-04T16:27:30.800-06:00After looking at Kirkwood Elementary's ranking...After looking at Kirkwood Elementary's ranking of 2 at Great Schools website, and it's abysmally low scores for the sub group "low socioeconomic status"<br />http://www.greatschools.org/modperl/achievement/ia/801#toc<br /><br /> I'd advice any poor parent (like myself) to not rely on this school to educate your children. <br /><br />Transfer them to a better school.<br /><br />Homeschool.<br /><br /> Buy, beg, borrow or steal a computer for your children and get them on the net. <br /><br />Don't trust people who claim to be data driven and focused on math and reading if outside sources and impartial state test scores show otherwise.<br /><br />BTW Jen, thanks for inviting me to take a closer look at Kirkwood.<br />Those poor kids.SCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-19939258890152307282012-03-04T15:39:41.002-06:002012-03-04T15:39:41.002-06:00Wendy -- I think the number of parents who could d...Wendy -- I think the number of parents who could do better by homeschooling their kids greatly exceeds the number who do it -- if only because it is so much easier to work with one or two children than with twenty or thirty. That's not a criticism of teachers, who are stuck with classrooms of twenty or thirty, or of parents who choose not to homeschool, since it's not something everyone's willing to do and entails a lot of sacrifices. But it does make you reflect on the costs inherent in any kind of institutionalization of kids -- especially where those institutions seem currently to be headed.<br /><br />I think part of the appeal of private schools is that, although they are also institutions, they are smaller institutions and thus maybe more likely to be responsive to individual needs. The more federal and state governments dictate policy decisions to individual schools and school districts, the worse that disparity in size becomes. A genuinely locally-controlled school system would might at least mitigate the problems inherent in very large institutions, and would thus give people one less reason to choose the private option.<br /><br />I think a lot of people who are predisposed against homeschooling would be quick to admit that, when they're too old to live on their own, they'd prefer to be cared for by their families in a home setting, if their families could do it, than to be put into a state institution for the elderly. Most people would probably prefer a private institution to a public one as well. It's not because they aren't public-spirited; it's just a recognition of the realities of life in large, often poorly-funded public institutions.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-66641127633926121602012-03-04T14:44:18.511-06:002012-03-04T14:44:18.511-06:00I think the most frustrating thing is that school ...I think the most frustrating thing is that school isn't like most other things in life that you can choose. Hey, the service at this store or repair place or doctors is crappy but at this other place they are great so you should go there instead. For most people the local public school is it....no choice. The school in the next neighborhood could be the best place in the world but unless I can sell my house and afford to buy a house in that district I'm out of luck. So great that you work in a wonderful school but for everyone that doesn't the options are pretty limited. You can voice your opinion, even if it's not always positive, and try to make a difference. I did that for 3 years as PTA president, there wasn't anyone more involved in school then me. I was asked to be on some school committees, like the safety/security but not once in 3 years did any of my concerns, thoughts or ideas ever make a difference in school policy. I got polite nods and thanks for your voice but no change. Unless you count me getting to choose what fundraiser we used as having input in school. I'm not sure what it will take to get true reform in ALL our schools but after 5 short years of dealing with schools I'm about ready to jump ship and homeschool. Seriously, I can't do a worse job then the school is doing.WendyNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-32735214179659635932012-03-04T13:10:38.015-06:002012-03-04T13:10:38.015-06:00I'm with KD; I think Another Chris is expressi...I'm with KD; I think Another Chris is expressing his completely understandable frustration about what is happening not just in his own school but at state and national levels in education, and acknowledging that home- or private schooling could free people from much of it. I can also understand Jen's disagreement with that view.<br /><br />The irony is that I get the sense that Jen would agree about just about every specific thing that Another Chris is complaining about, and is just disagreeing about how prevalent those problems are. I have to assume that anyone making the decision about homeschooling would naturally check out their own public schools first in any case -- and that many of the liberal homeschoolers did exactly that when they made their decision, as some of the commenters on the <a href="http://ablogaboutschool.blogspot.com/2012/02/are-liberal-homeschoolers-hypocrites.html" rel="nofollow">previous post</a> indicated.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-87116161954956246262012-03-04T07:13:36.730-06:002012-03-04T07:13:36.730-06:00I inadvertently posted a comment as "anonymou...I inadvertently posted a comment as "anonymous" above--the one that juxtaposes two statements by Jen. Sorry about that. Sloppy mouse clicking technique.<br /><br />Jen, I did not accuse you of pontificating without reading other people's comments. I did accuse you of pontificating without reading those comments carefully.Dorisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-76397336153249621022012-03-03T22:07:45.451-06:002012-03-03T22:07:45.451-06:00KD--I believe every opinion stated here is a valid...KD--I believe every opinion stated here is a valid opinion. I visit here occasionally and express one that is different than all of the other commenters' opinions. When I do that I am told that I am insensitive, my opinion is invalid, I lack sufficient evidence, I have no understanding of what I am saying, I am out of touch, I pontificate without reading other people's comments, and I can look at the same thing as all of you but somehow see things differently (meaning wrong.)<br /><br />I have never ever said that Another Chris's school is a fabulous school and that parents should keep their kids there no matter what. I've never ever disagreed when people have written that they are homeschooling or considering homeschooling. I truly believe that all children learn differently and have different needs. Families need to do what is right for their children. I have not once said that public education is perfect. I've only said that my school is not like others; that Kirkwood is not like others; that not all schools are terrible. There are good schools! Your point is valid. But so is mine. <br /><br />If I have disrespected any commenter here, I truly apologize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-28554374792957011392012-03-03T22:02:36.007-06:002012-03-03T22:02:36.007-06:00Jen:
You just wrote this: "One size does no...Jen:<br /><br />You just wrote this: "One size does not fit all. Blanket statements are inaccurate."<br /><br />Now, go back and reread what you wrote earlier. Here's an illustrative excerpt: "To all of you in the ICCSD who dislike your schools, I strongly encourage you to visit and perhaps request a transfer to Kirkwood Elementary! It is a wonderful, supportive, caring environment for ALL of our children."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-1743174058072296432012-03-03T21:56:12.181-06:002012-03-03T21:56:12.181-06:00Jen, regarding the comment by another Chris, I thi...Jen, regarding the comment by another Chris, I think that just speaks to the intensity of his feelings on the matter.<br /><br />One thing that he gets at, that Obama and Duncan have moved at an incredibly slow pace to reverse NCLB...I could completely see how that would be frustrating for someone in the teaching profession.KDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07883213697051461818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-37314459158852902382012-03-03T21:47:33.123-06:002012-03-03T21:47:33.123-06:00I have one more comment about why I think this blo...I have one more comment about why I think this blog(or any other blog) is important.<br /><br />The area I used to live in had schools that did not perform quite as well as those in the ICCSD. The school board was a bit livelier, and at one time there was even a school board member who took legal action to make certain school documents public. Can you ever imagine someone on the ICCSD school board doing that? I don't know, maybe since that district didn't have the outward appearance of being a top notch school district, it didn't try quite so hard to keep up appearances like our district/board seems to want to do.<br /><br />When my child started school here, I started noticing that many seemed to have the general consensus that because the ICCSD had good test scores overall that meant everything was going well. It seemed any sort of criticism would result in defensiveness...or more often silence, especially from the school board. It was a sort of see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil approach. It didn't at all match what I saw going on in our school though.<br /><br />At that same time I also had the impression that our local media was incredibly soft on most school issues. I think the P-C could do a much better job on education reprting. For whatever reason(perhaps more geographical area to cover), local TV news stations don't have much coverage of local school issues.<br /><br />So my point(which I think Chris also is making), is that the blogosphere does allow one to have a voice to talk about what isn't going well or what you are concerned about. I think the approach of many past board members to think overall test scores(or athletic and other achievements) are all that matters simply doesn't work.<br /><br />Also when you have at least one board member who seems to want to lessen the opportunities of the public to participate... it seems like a blog like this is more necessary than ever.KDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07883213697051461818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-20219828211011152352012-03-03T21:42:53.193-06:002012-03-03T21:42:53.193-06:00"I would urge any parent who can to remove th..."I would urge any parent who can to remove their child from public school." <<<< This is what I have issue with and what my comments are about. Another Chris does not say "Any parent who can remove their child from the school I teach in" or "Any parent with a child in Florida schools." He urges any parent with a child in public school to remove their child. ANY CHILD...and ANY public school. There are nearly 100,000 public schools in the U.S., and Another Chris' advice is for any parent with students enrolled to remove them. That is a broad statement and I take issue with it. That is all I have attempted to say in numerous ways. One size does not fit all. Blanket statements are inaccurate. Stereotypes hurt--whether they are about schools or people. Urging ANY parent to take their children out of public schools is what I disagree with. It assumes that all public schools are bad, which is a faulty assumption.<br /><br />I have no problem with constructive criticism. I have no problem with people voicing their opinions. I have no problem with people writing, commenting, or blogging their concerns about public education. I have a huge problem with faulty assumptions, blanket statements and stereotypes. I have a huge problem with someone urging "any parent who can to remove their children from public school." <br /><br />Please stop over-analyzing and misconstruing my comments. Another Chris made a blanket statement that I find bothersome. There is no hidden meaning that needs to be eked out of my words--I dislike like his suggestion that ANY parent remove their child from public school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-55394233574106421822012-03-03T21:16:25.528-06:002012-03-03T21:16:25.528-06:00Jen...I looked at the Kirkwood website, and I see ...Jen...I looked at the Kirkwood website, and I see the words Trustworthiness, Respect, Responsibility, Fairness, Caring and Citizenship, as well as a takeoff on the SOAR motto.<br /><br />Maybe it is just me, but including "trustworthiness" in a motto implies that it is something that is a concern, as if we don't give the kids the benefit of the doubt. Seeing that would probably bother me.<br /><br />While your idea of visiting the school is a nice one, simply visiting the school only gives you a limited amount of information. As others have pointed out, Kirkwood sill has features common to other schools in the district...same administrators, same curriculum, same Board of Education.<br /><br />In any school, you can have families that have diverse opinions of the school, based on different experiences within that school. Just because someone has different experiences/opinions that what you conceive our district to be, it doesn't make those experiences less valid.KDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07883213697051461818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-88617624473183679912012-03-03T13:37:36.607-06:002012-03-03T13:37:36.607-06:00Jen,
Can you at least concede that someone else h...Jen, <br />Can you at least concede that someone else has a valid point? Again, many of the things that I have issue with are happening not just at Hoover, but all over the district, all over the state and all over the country. Taking a looksee at Kirkwood elementary isn't going to change my feelings about those issues. Sure, things may be implemented differently at Kirkwood but that doesn't change the fact that the things I don't like are still happening. It's just the same thing fixed up differently. As Chris mentioned PBIS is an excellent example. How about special services? I would be playing the same chess game I play now no matter what school in the district my kid attended. Iowa Assessments. It wouldn't matter where in the state I went, my kids would be taking them. I don't think they measure much about my kids, I don't think they are helping my kid develop a passion for learning or to become a critical thinker or to be the least bit creative, things that I value and that I think be prominent in education.Mandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10663061430481861749noreply@blogger.com