tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post8277618445448583158..comments2024-03-28T06:53:24.022-05:00Comments on a blog about school: Scenes from the first week of schoolChrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12919030671050831251noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-51265380719614487632012-01-01T16:22:01.005-06:002012-01-01T16:22:01.005-06:00LarryE -- Thanks for commenting! I completely agr...LarryE -- Thanks for commenting! I completely agree.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-17185518526338945352012-01-01T15:51:40.608-06:002012-01-01T15:51:40.608-06:00Came here from the "Best of" list.
You ...Came here from the "Best of" list.<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />"The constant use of tangible rewards encourages materialism and acquisitiveness."<br /><br />I'd add that, especially in the form of the deliberately-visible bracelets, it also creates a competition to see who can be the most obedient - which, let's just say, does not really strike me as a worthwhile or educationally-important goal.Lotushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774266443353774752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-5537071124038911362011-10-28T01:14:00.703-05:002011-10-28T01:14:00.703-05:00Ah, you might be right. It does make you wonder w...Ah, you might be right. It does make you wonder what the disagreement was about.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-38119431316705318702011-10-27T20:40:04.916-05:002011-10-27T20:40:04.916-05:00I'm thinking libertygirl meant disagree polite...I'm thinking libertygirl meant disagree politely, but I'm not sure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-90463734189322374212011-10-27T11:56:37.032-05:002011-10-27T11:56:37.032-05:00Libertygirl -- Thanks. One thing you might try, a...Libertygirl -- Thanks. One thing you might try, at least if you think your son would be interested, is to ask the school whether it is permissible for a student to politely say "No, thank you" when offered a ticket (or whatever the reward is under your school's system). I think that's an awfully reasonable request that would be hard for a teacher or principal to say "no" to. It's not something every kid would feel comfortable doing, but some would. And it would send the message that kids are autonomous moral beings who can't necessarily be manipulated just by having some external reward dangled in front of them.<br /><br />In any event, good luck in that conference. You're certainly welcome to crib from anything you find on this site if it helps.<br /><br />As for a school treating a kid differently because of his political opinions, you might bring a copy of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution" rel="nofollow">First Amendment</a> along -- but you've probably already thought of that.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-85776499409811915562011-10-27T11:13:54.846-05:002011-10-27T11:13:54.846-05:00I discovered your blog when I was doing research o...I discovered your blog when I was doing research on PBIS. It put in to words everything I was feeling about it and its origins and purposes. I have parent/teacher conferences tomorrow and am gathering ammunition. My son is one of the "independent thinkers", that PBIS hates. He is in 6th grade, and has found that even if you disagree politically with a teacher, the full hammer of PBIS comes down on you, ie. humiliation in front of class, getting detention for walking too fast in the hall, etc... I really have enjoyed reading your comments, and I think you are right on in your assessment of PBISlibertygirl1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-4419597911799771172011-09-19T22:45:50.201-05:002011-09-19T22:45:50.201-05:00Suburban Chicken Farmer -- LOL, and thanks for com...Suburban Chicken Farmer -- LOL, and thanks for commenting!Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-91316034295989100532011-09-19T13:44:58.883-05:002011-09-19T13:44:58.883-05:00School Choice for all: "I won't volunteer...School Choice for all: "I won't volunteer in the buildings because I can't stand to be around poorly behaved children."<br /> <br /> For this, I'd like to extend my heartfelt gratitude to all the poorly behaved children in the buildings and everywhere else you may be. <br /> <br />See, I'm not too keen on having an adult around my kids who believes being beaten with a board across the buttocks while wearing a dress caused him or her to grow up to be normal.Suburban Chicken Farmernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-62066576242464581242011-09-12T13:15:14.468-05:002011-09-12T13:15:14.468-05:00I thought the pledge was no longer done in public ...I thought the pledge was no longer done in public schools in the US? Though I have been seeing a lot of support for bringing it back in the last 10 years. I remember we stopped doing it every morning in about 4th or 5th grade I think.... I assume its return id related to the patriotic response eroding civil liberties in the aftermath of 9/11.Julie VanDykenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-2204010509882318132011-09-12T02:24:24.163-05:002011-09-12T02:24:24.163-05:00Julie -- Only what I've learned from Wikipedia...Julie -- Only what I've learned from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a>. Apparently the earliest version was actually written by a Christian socialist, Francis Bellamy. The original version read, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Wikipedia then adds: "As a socialist, [Bellamy] had initially also considered using the words <i>equality</i> and <i>fraternity</i> but decided against it - knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans."<br /><br />It was 1942 before Congress recognized the pledge, in the longer form that we know now, but without the "under God." In 1954, Congress added the "under God," which has been a source of litigation, still unresolved by the Supreme Court, ever since.<br /><br />What I'd like to know is just when, and why, the practice of leading schoolchildren in the pledge became widespread.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-44837842951372971812011-09-12T02:04:46.218-05:002011-09-12T02:04:46.218-05:00I have always found that interesting about how and...I have always found that interesting about how and when the "under God" was added...do you know how it went before? Was that the only change?Julie VanDykenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-87127839773960713782011-09-10T14:08:12.211-05:002011-09-10T14:08:12.211-05:00Thanks, FedUpMom. The words "under God"...Thanks, FedUpMom. The words "under God" were added to the pledge in 1954, at the height of the McCarthy era. It would be interesting to know to what degree McCarthyism, with its loyalty oaths, was responsible for the widespread use of the pledge in schools.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-8270873872173952362011-09-10T09:17:14.002-05:002011-09-10T09:17:14.002-05:00School Choice said:
***
Saying the Pledge is a fu...School Choice said:<br /><br />***<br />Saying the Pledge is a fundamental part of learning to be an American.<br />***<br /><br />That's ridiculous. The pledge wasn't even written until the 1940's. Abraham Lincoln never heard of the pledge.<br /><br />Do you really think that a child, speaking words that someone else came up with and the child probably doesn't even understand, is learning anything useful about being an American? I don't.<br /><br />When I was a kid, I used to refuse to say the pledge. It was during the Vietnam war ...FedUpMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00951858601020687242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-82374404082495138202011-09-09T22:39:15.056-05:002011-09-09T22:39:15.056-05:00SchoolChoice -- You and I are coming from two very...SchoolChoice -- You and I are coming from two very different places. But I want to give you credit for stating explicitly the kind of philosophy that underlies the practices I described in this post. To support PBIS, etc., you need to be coming from a very authoritarian, indoctrinatory understanding of what education is for. Those values are pretty much the opposite of mine. I wonder if our school’s principal would agree more with you.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-22090908723452679902011-09-09T12:41:17.014-05:002011-09-09T12:41:17.014-05:00School choice, I'm trying to decide if you are...School choice, I'm trying to decide if you are really serious about the comments you made.<br /><br />Paddling/corporal punishment.....people make a good argument for it, but it doesn't seem to work out in real life. I'm against it, and I think you create your own set of problems by spanking etc. <br /><br />Most of my elementary years were in the seventies, in a Catholic school. In some ways it was less restrictive than the experience my younger child is having now. We did not whisper in the hallways or when we were eating. <br /><br />One memory I do have is of the kids sliding down the banister between classes. While I think this was discouraged, I guess our teachers thought we needed a tiny bit of fun, because they didn't try very hard to stop us.KDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07883213697051461818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-50702693731488638172011-09-09T09:46:28.716-05:002011-09-09T09:46:28.716-05:00Appropriate behavior in the schools is a problem a...Appropriate behavior in the schools is a problem at all levels. I won't volunteer in the buildings because I can't stand to be around poorly behaved children. <br /><br />Parent(s) are not teaching their children basic societal rules - and if they are not, the schools must. Classrooms and learning ARE being disrupted. Walking quietly, single file, in the hall, and whispering in the lunchroom were all rules we followed, oh, way back in the 60s and 70s, when children not only were required to say the Pledge of Allegiance every day but girls were required to wear dresses and if you wanted pants on cold days you wore them under your dress. And paddling was allowed and conducted, and everyone in school knew if you got paddled, as did your parents, and you got it again at home. Maybe if those who are discipline problems were allowed to be paddled today - the normal kids wouldn't have to participate in programs such as PBIS. <br />And, most of us turned out pretty normal.<br /><br />There is enough "creative thinking" and self-determination going on in the homes. A little discipline and being required to follow the rules even if you don't agree with them, and even if the behavior being corrected isn't your child's problem, won't hurt any of them. Who promised life was going to be fair 100% of the time? Their psyche's really won't be permanently harmed. <br /><br />Saying the Pledge is a fundamental part of learning to be an American. Rote memorization - an important skill - of anything is sadly lacking, so doing one pledge certainly won't hurt them and just like learning The Lord's Prayer, you learn more about what it means as you grow older. Civic education and knowledge is non-existant among our children. That is well documented.<br /><br />As to pulling your child out and putting them into a private school/homeschooling - Great! Go for it! Unfortunately, only the upper-income parents really have that "choice" and option. Open enrollment out of ICCSD is growing at a significant rate, and will continue to do so.<br /><br />The best thing for all the schools would be for liberal or expanded open enrollment to be implemented. The money follows the child, to any accredited school. Unfortunately, the liberals who don't believe in religious schools won't allow this to happen - even though the only children who would be attending those schools would be those whose parents made the decision to send them there.<br /><br />But if the school is accredited - be it Willowind, or Regina or IMS - then the State has already said they are an appropriate educational option, so the money should follow the child. <br /><br />Working for liberal or expanded open enrollment will be the best option.School Choice for allnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-69784822728214107182011-09-04T21:38:39.180-05:002011-09-04T21:38:39.180-05:00Mandy--why would you apologize for such a great po...Mandy--why would you apologize for such a great post?! I loved it!<br /><br />On the lack of transparency and accountability:<br /><br />I've been bouncing around on the local school district website and the Iowa Dept. of Ed. website looking for info on who decided to implement PBIS here, and why. On the state website, I found this page:<br /><br />http://educateiowa.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=751&Itemid=1622#newsletter<br /><br />The newsletter makes clear that the state DOE wanted full implementation of PBIS in school districts across Iowa, but I couldn't tell what the enforcement mechanism was. Is the state Dept. of Ed. the source of the Safe Schools, Healthy Kids grant money? And is that money in turn federal? Or is this PBIS stuff the brain-child of the select group of billionaire philanthropists who have accumulated such an obscenely disproportionate share of society's wealth that they now get to dictate public school policy through their various foundations?<br /><br />It would be awfully nice to know. Maybe we need to be contacting Bill Gates, not Obama . . . .<br /><br />Interestingly, the newsletter on the Iowa DOE website includes the info that PBIS was "originally developed as an alternative to aversive intervention for a small group of disabled students." I think I already knew that, but it still got me wondering. If the proponents of PBIS are truly so positive that all students can succeed, and they really want to show their faith in all students, how about instead of drawing their pedagogical models from programming developed for disabled students, why don't they draw it instead from programming developed for the "gifted and talented"? I.e., why not preemptively treat all students as though they were gifted and talented rather than disabled?<br /><br />My own "disabled" kid is basically now getting a "gifted and talented" education in her small group homeschool: access to a rich and varied curriculum including foreign language study, history, cultural study, and so on (instead of constant remedial math and reading), opportunities to pursue special projects she has chosen (Harriet Tubman, Greece, etc.), the ability to join in with her classmates in a democratic process to write their own school rules, etc. Not only has she learned a ton, but the amount of time we now spend focused on behavior issues with her is substantially less. Surprise, surprise.<br /><br />As CB said, I know public schools can't replicate what private schools offer, but it doesn't have to be like it is.<br /><br />Sorry I'm posting so much, Chris. This whole discussion thread has brought back for me a lot of repressed memories.Dorisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-68115196921430748662011-09-04T16:45:38.734-05:002011-09-04T16:45:38.734-05:00Mandy -- Yeah, for all the talk about "accoun...Mandy -- Yeah, for all the talk about "accountability," somehow there is virtually no political accountability for what actually goes on the public schools. Everybody blames someone higher up, to the point where, if you have a problem with your school, your only recourse is to write a letter to Obama.<br /><br />I may have to make more of an effort to find out who is actually responsible for the decision to inflict PBIS on our school district. I know that it is part of a grant (the Safe Schools Healthy Children grant?) that the district got at some point. If nothing else, the fear of having to give the money back would probably stop them from ever admitting that it's a bad idea -- regardless of whether it's good for the kids.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-19129568771357281082011-09-04T16:35:31.244-05:002011-09-04T16:35:31.244-05:00KD -- I totally agree. For all the focus on makin...KD -- I totally agree. For all the focus on making sure the kids know the "expectations," there's little to no discussion of whether those expectations are age-appropriate, or realistic for all kids.<br /><br />Kids are naturally going to vary along a spectrum when it comes to how capable they are of being quiet and sitting still for very long. Who decided that all but the most self-restrained would be considered "problems" that need to be addressed -- in elementary school? It seems like the percentage of kids who are considered "within the range of normal" behaviorally is being squeezed smaller and smaller. (More on that topic <a href="http://ablogaboutschool.blogspot.com/2010/08/ordinary-people.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-52326770186404363872011-09-04T16:27:45.290-05:002011-09-04T16:27:45.290-05:00Wendy -- That's a really sad story. It's ...Wendy -- That's a really sad story. It's as if they're trying to get the kids accustomed to income inequality, and to blame themselves for it.<br /><br />"Not to mention the fact that it basically says follow the rules, not because it's the right thing to do but because you get stuff." It amazes me how little this bothers the school administrators who defend PBIS. They just brush that concern off by arguing that the kids will ultimately internalize the rules and follow them out of habit. And what else are they internalizing?Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-37492373318949144862011-09-04T16:21:24.671-05:002011-09-04T16:21:24.671-05:00Doris -- Yes, and I don't think that coinciden...Doris -- Yes, and I don't think that coincidence was lost on the kids. I think those students were preemptively seen not only as behavior problems, but also as standardized-test-score problems. The obsession with behavior goes hand in hand with the desire to squeeze as many standardized testing points out of the kids as possible.<br /><br />Once you make test scores the sole criterion of how schools are judged, schools are naturally going to do whatever they think it takes to raise them, regardless of what values have to be sacrificed along the way. (In fact, two years later, our school is itself on the SINA watch list.)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07559356125770114400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-68341007277817113662011-09-04T09:15:01.589-05:002011-09-04T09:15:01.589-05:00I've been trying to organize my thoughts and h...I've been trying to organize my thoughts and have just given up so my comment might be all over the place and I apologize. I dislike PBIS. I really dislike it. One of the things that is so incredibly frustrating to me is that it is absolutely impossible to have a conversation about it with a district administrator. As Chris pointed out many of the school board candidates say it's not something the school board should really be involved in, our PTA doesn't think it's appropriate to have any discussion in their meetings. The PBIS website and what has come home from the principal emphasizes the fact that PBIS is not a curriculum so you can't talk to the curriculum advisors. Talking to the principal is pretty useless. When PBIS was implemented the then principal carefully explained that she had little say in whether to use PBIS or not it was coming if not this year in the next. I current principal was a PBIS "facilitator" and can cut and paste all sorts of buzz words and phrases from the PBIS propoganda that she receives that added no insight into anything about PBIS. She might as well have just said "Because I said so". <br /> <br />Parents don't have to be disengaged to not remember "book return day" and frankly why should we? <br />Why can't there just be some natural consequence? It frustrating that instead of encouraging kids to read, it's just causing anxiety about whether it gets back on time. My two kids for the most part left school library books in their desks to read at school so they wouldn't have to worry about book return day and read different books at home, but I don't think that's really ideal either. I guess I can say they were problem solving. I totally agree with KD about the fact it encourages kids to follow the rules simply to get stuff. <br />As for the 2 squirts of soap and 2 paper towels I simply find it ludicrous. Do the kids really need that kind of micromanagement? PBIS even takes creativity out of recess. When the "expectation" on the playground is play with equipment as intended. Please don't do anything imaginative. <br />In the last "Principal's Piece" in our weekly "Headlines" newsletter from the school the principal suggested learning activities to do in the car with your kids. I just threw up my hands and thought can't kids just have a bit of down time or a time when they choose what to do? Some of that is just the visceral reaction I have to all of the "suggestions" that get sent out about how to spend my time with my kids. I'm sure it's just meant for the parents that really "need" it.Mandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10663061430481861749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-11255130707250276302011-09-03T23:38:00.477-05:002011-09-03T23:38:00.477-05:001)Chris, regarding your comments about higher ener...1)Chris, regarding your comments about higher energy kids or kids that can't sit still.....I think the education community has lost touch with what children need at any given stage, especially in the early elementary grades. <br /><br />Younger kids especially can't be expected to sit all day in the classroom without having other outlets throughout the school day. They need to socialize, have time to eat, and spend time outside. I'm not a super high energy person, but one of my kids is, and he definitely needs time in his day to have an outlet for his physical energy. <br /><br />2)When my oldest started school, the school was run in a somewhat chaotic manner. I think expectations weren't clear for the children, and some staff seemed to turn a blind eye to issues like physical aggression between children. hings got better over time, but some staff still seem puzzled as to what to do with those issues.<br /><br />So when I first heard about PBIS, I was mistakenly thought it was perhaps a way for staff to be more mindful/consistent with how they dealt with issues like that. I had no idea that it would evolve into a program that would talk about proper bathroom behavior. It almost seems to me that the important messages(no hitting) get lost in talk about unrealistic expectations for other things.KDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07883213697051461818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-70625789718781573712011-09-03T16:49:34.417-05:002011-09-03T16:49:34.417-05:00Like anything PBIS might work in theory and then i...Like anything PBIS might work in theory and then it falls apart when put into practice. One of the HUGE issues I had with implementation was that when I volunteered at our "Store" where the bucks that kids earned could be redeemed for "stuff" it was always the same kids coming out with 30-40 dollars and the same kids coming out with 2 or even 1. Guess which one was the kid with the "behavior" problem? If this program was designed to get the kids with the behavior problems to behave better it certainly wasn't working and if anything was probably making them feel worse as they watched the "good" kids collect and collect and collect more dollars. Imagine the blow to your already fragile self-esteem. When you give out dollars for things like returning a library book or getting to class on time you've penalized kids whose parents are disengaged. My 1st grader wasn't making sure she got her library book back on the right day.....I was. So the theory of PBIS, let's use positive reinforcement to encourage better behavior can easily fall apart and actually back fire during implementation. Not to mention the fact that it basically says follow the rules, not because it's the right thing to do but because you get stuff.Wendynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8285353362748898720.post-44130363299452111422011-09-03T16:30:45.092-05:002011-09-03T16:30:45.092-05:00Hi, KD -- I just want to say that I completely agr...Hi, KD -- I just want to say that I completely agree with you about how one can find children from every background who would benefit from extra support services around behavior. Witness my own wonderful "problem" child--who is being raised in a relatively affluent household by two well-educated professionals. (And I'm quite confident that our own ineptitude as parents has often made things even harder for her.)<br /><br />Indeed, the thing that always most irked me about the introduction of PBIS at the public school my children used to attend was that it just happened to have taken place the very same year that the school expanded by 100 or so students who transferred in from neighboring elementaries that had been (mis)labeled SINA schools under No Child Left Behind. I always found that "coincidence" troubling, because the implication did seem to be that these transfer students were being pre-emptivly viewed as potential behavior problems. Otherwise, why not simply welcome them into the existing PBIS-free community?Dorisnoreply@blogger.com